Comments on: Some things I know about our new president! http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/ Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:43:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Ruth Bassham http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-32493 Ruth Bassham Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:13:43 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-32493 Oh, one more important principle taken from I Peter 2:9-20. Paul goes through a series of instructions all having to do with respecting authority of different types. Note a couple of significant points which set the principle here: v. 12, "...they may by your good works...glorify God..."; v. 13ff, "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man FOR THE LORD'S SAKE...that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of FOOLISH men..." and v. 18, "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward." Although "froward" refers to personal injustice, it seems this principle of honoring a bad ruler would carry to whatever the unrighteous leadership situation is. Consistent with this is Ephesians 5, where he instructs wives to submit to their husbands "as unto the Lord." So even if they don't want to do it for their husbands' sake (or if he doesn't personally deserve it), they should do it for the Lord's sake. Same with submitting to ordinances of man "for the Lord's sake," implying that there is a higher reason than just the immediate person or situation you're dealing with, and further, that one of the results of this is that it will be a testimony for Christ. None of this means we have to let Obama destroy us. Our governmental process is built for us to fight back, legitimately, without dishonoring the president. It's mainly an attitude of respect, and not usurping control that is not ours. OK, I'm done. Oh, one more important principle taken from I Peter 2:9-20. Paul goes through a series of instructions all having to do with respecting authority of different types. Note a couple of significant points which set the principle here: v. 12, “…they may by your good works…glorify God…”; v. 13ff, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man FOR THE LORD’S SAKE…that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of FOOLISH men…” and v. 18, “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.”

Although “froward” refers to personal injustice, it seems this principle of honoring a bad ruler would carry to whatever the unrighteous leadership situation is. Consistent with this is Ephesians 5, where he instructs wives to submit to their husbands “as unto the Lord.” So even if they don’t want to do it for their husbands’ sake (or if he doesn’t personally deserve it), they should do it for the Lord’s sake. Same with submitting to ordinances of man “for the Lord’s sake,” implying that there is a higher reason than just the immediate person or situation you’re dealing with, and further, that one of the results of this is that it will be a testimony for Christ.

None of this means we have to let Obama destroy us. Our governmental process is built for us to fight back, legitimately, without dishonoring the president. It’s mainly an attitude of respect, and not usurping control that is not ours. OK, I’m done.

]]> By: Ruth Bassham http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-32488 Ruth Bassham Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:22:13 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-32488 George, take a look at the whole picture, and you and Austin Gardner might end up saying the same thing, actually. It is certain Austin Gardner did not want Obama in office. If God "wanted" him in office, it is not because Obama will lead in a godly manner, but rather that God will use his ungodly leadership to accomplish what he needs to bring to pass in the world. And yes, He's giving us what we deserved; we elected him. God gives men free will AND accomplishes his purpose while responding to what we do. It amazes me how he can deal with individuals and nations both independently and in concert. God's Sovereignty. You interpreted Gardner's position to be, "God will have who he wants regardless of what we do." Actually, God will have who he wants, and much of it is based on what we do. When God hardened Pharoah's heart, it wasn't against Pharoah's will. He had already shown his defiance against God. God just utilized what was already there and extended it temporarily, perhaps, to accomplish his purpose. He completed his demonstration to the Egyptians and the Israelites of the inefficacy of the Egyptian gods, and his power to save. It is sure he even put the wicked Pharoah in "office" for such a time as that. But you can also be sure Pharoah had an opportunity to believe and obey God before and probably after the brief period that God hardened his heart. So although he controlled a situation to accomplish something for a nation, he didn't prevent an individual from accepting him. The examples you cite from scripture show that God gives men responsibility and choices. The scriptures Austin Gardner cites in his post do not take away from the fact that "man selects most leaders," as your examples show; however, the other scriptures go beyond that and state over and over that God is the one that "removeth kings, and setteth up kings...." Yes, we put rulers in office, but not without God being in ultimate control. That doesn't mean we're puppets; that means God is big enough to give us choices and work his own will in the bigger picture. Honoring Authority. The scriptures Austin Gardner uses in his post state over and over that God commands us to respect authority (authority, not just righteousness). You said, "you also have to give him and his foolishness honor and respect," but what Austin said was, "We can disagree with their policies but I think Biblically should respect their position." That's quite different. How do we respect his position? You gave the answer yourself. Fight wrong policies, yes. Voice disagreement, yes. Vote, yes. And when the "wrong" person gets in office, we still fight wrong policies, voice disagreement, and vote. All the while recognizing that we have a duty to pray for the president and respect his position while we disagree and work through appropriate governmental means to make things right. We don't honor his foolishness; we honor the fact that he holds a position of authority. A child honors his parents even when they're wrong. A wife shows respect to her husband even when he's wrong. There is a point that obedience for authority stops, and that is when to do so would be to disobey the higher authority, God. "We ought to obey God rather than men." We can respectfully disobey civil authority. How? We can respect and obey their position as far as possible, yet when they conflict, acknowledge with words and action that God's position is even higher. Points of Clarification. 1) You're right, fools should not receive honor... UNLESS it is because of their position of authority. (The scriptures you gave were not speaking to our subject, but general-purpose fools.) 2) We are to obey those in authority ("be subject unto the higher powers")... UNLESS their edicts contradict God's laws ("we ought to obey God rather than man;" Moses, Daniel, etc.). 3) When the Bible prohibits our having respect to persons, it is talking about having favortism. 4) To determine who is "to whom due" you have to look at the rest of scripture, not just assign your own opinion (remember the UNLESS principles). He's talking about governmental authority in that passage, and commands us to respect authority in other passages too. I wonder if you might read the scriptures in Austin's post again carefully and thoughtfully. They don't leave much question. In the final analysis, you gave the same solution I think Pastor Gardner would agree with as to how to honor: "...by obeying the laws of this land, as long as they do not conflict with God's laws." George, take a look at the whole picture, and you and Austin Gardner might end up saying the same thing, actually. It is certain Austin Gardner did not want Obama in office. If God “wanted” him in office, it is not because Obama will lead in a godly manner, but rather that God will use his ungodly leadership to accomplish what he needs to bring to pass in the world. And yes, He’s giving us what we deserved; we elected him. God gives men free will AND accomplishes his purpose while responding to what we do. It amazes me how he can deal with individuals and nations both independently and in concert.

God’s Sovereignty.
You interpreted Gardner’s position to be, “God will have who he wants regardless of what we do.” Actually, God will have who he wants, and much of it is based on what we do. When God hardened Pharoah’s heart, it wasn’t against Pharoah’s will. He had already shown his defiance against God. God just utilized what was already there and extended it temporarily, perhaps, to accomplish his purpose. He completed his demonstration to the Egyptians and the Israelites of the inefficacy of the Egyptian gods, and his power to save. It is sure he even put the wicked Pharoah in “office” for such a time as that. But you can also be sure Pharoah had an opportunity to believe and obey God before and probably after the brief period that God hardened his heart. So although he controlled a situation to accomplish something for a nation, he didn’t prevent an individual from accepting him.

The examples you cite from scripture show that God gives men responsibility and choices. The scriptures Austin Gardner cites in his post do not take away from the fact that “man selects most leaders,” as your examples show; however, the other scriptures go beyond that and state over and over that God is the one that “removeth kings, and setteth up kings….” Yes, we put rulers in office, but not without God being in ultimate control. That doesn’t mean we’re puppets; that means God is big enough to give us choices and work his own will in the bigger picture.

Honoring Authority.
The scriptures Austin Gardner uses in his post state over and over that God commands us to respect authority (authority, not just righteousness). You said, “you also have to give him and his foolishness honor and respect,” but what Austin said was, “We can disagree with their policies but I think Biblically should respect their position.” That’s quite different. How do we respect his position? You gave the answer yourself.

Fight wrong policies, yes. Voice disagreement, yes. Vote, yes. And when the “wrong” person gets in office, we still fight wrong policies, voice disagreement, and vote. All the while recognizing that we have a duty to pray for the president and respect his position while we disagree and work through appropriate governmental means to make things right. We don’t honor his foolishness; we honor the fact that he holds a position of authority. A child honors his parents even when they’re wrong. A wife shows respect to her husband even when he’s wrong.

There is a point that obedience for authority stops, and that is when to do so would be to disobey the higher authority, God. “We ought to obey God rather than men.” We can respectfully disobey civil authority. How? We can respect and obey their position as far as possible, yet when they conflict, acknowledge with words and action that God’s position is even higher.

Points of Clarification.
1) You’re right, fools should not receive honor… UNLESS it is because of their position of authority. (The scriptures you gave were not speaking to our subject, but general-purpose fools.)

2) We are to obey those in authority (“be subject unto the higher powers”)… UNLESS their edicts contradict God’s laws (“we ought to obey God rather than man;” Moses, Daniel, etc.).

3) When the Bible prohibits our having respect to persons, it is talking about having favortism.

4) To determine who is “to whom due” you have to look at the rest of scripture, not just assign your own opinion (remember the UNLESS principles). He’s talking about governmental authority in that passage, and commands us to respect authority in other passages too.

I wonder if you might read the scriptures in Austin’s post again carefully and thoughtfully. They don’t leave much question.

In the final analysis, you gave the same solution I think Pastor Gardner would agree with as to how to honor: “…by obeying the laws of this land, as long as they do not conflict with God’s laws.”

]]> By: donewastingtimeinchurch http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-32471 donewastingtimeinchurch Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:50:02 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-32471 To vandenhurk, I have every right to blast god because, assuming it exists, it has been nothing but an abject failure in it's job description. I've sacrificed, I walked the line, I witnessed (oh that story of the last time is priceless, but not for this post) I've been baptised, spoken in tongues, can discuss biblical theory with any bible college grad, but watching my family's suffering, not mine, opened my eyes to the real condition of the world.Though I did see a few typos (that should have read "dad's early retirement") that could have misled you into thinking I was referring to myself, you'll still see there's more than enough in my original post to be clear that it was watching my loved ones being stomped under the heel of god's enemies all while praising and thanking their god for their pain and suffering. The trials of Job? A nice little bedtime story, so is "The Cat in the Hat", but there's no proof either ever happened. Besides, even if it were true (the 140 years is a bit of a stretch even for literalists) my parents deserve their reward now, not when they're too old and frail to enjoy it. Christianity is nothing but lowering your standards until you're satisfied with what you don't have, and find pleasure in breaking yourself for no payoff. This post is the epitome of that, pray, sacrifice, witness, suffer, and look what happens, your enemies are given dominion over you anyway. I have dared god to be in my life in the past, and if what my family and I experienced was "unconditional love" than I may as well take the "unconditional contempt" of walking without the church and save myself the time and money. You challenged me, I informed you I completed it long ago. Now it's your turn, again I say spit in your left hand and pray in your right, see which fills first. To vandenhurk, I have every right to blast god because, assuming it exists, it has been nothing but an abject failure in it’s job description. I’ve sacrificed, I walked the line, I witnessed (oh that story of the last time is priceless, but not for this post) I’ve been baptised, spoken in tongues, can discuss biblical theory with any bible college grad, but watching my family’s suffering, not mine, opened my eyes to the real condition of the world.Though I did see a few typos (that should have read “dad’s early retirement”) that could have misled you into thinking I was referring to myself, you’ll still see there’s more than enough in my original post to be clear that it was watching my loved ones being stomped under the heel of god’s enemies all while praising and thanking their god for their pain and suffering. The trials of Job? A nice little bedtime story, so is “The Cat in the Hat”, but there’s no proof either ever happened. Besides, even if it were true (the 140 years is a bit of a stretch even for literalists) my parents deserve their reward now, not when they’re too old and frail to enjoy it.
Christianity is nothing but lowering your standards until you’re satisfied with what you don’t have, and find pleasure in breaking yourself for no payoff. This post is the epitome of that, pray, sacrifice, witness, suffer, and look what happens, your enemies are given dominion over you anyway.
I have dared god to be in my life in the past, and if what my family and I experienced was “unconditional love” than I may as well take the “unconditional contempt” of walking without the church and save myself the time and money. You challenged me, I informed you I completed it long ago. Now it’s your turn, again I say spit in your left hand and pray in your right, see which fills first.

]]> By: George Burnett http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-32451 George Burnett Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:03:06 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-32451 I find it ironic that many pastors and evangelic leaders will insist that we get involved in politics and educate ourselves on the candidates and issues so that we can vote for the person that most closely aligns with our Christian values, then turn right around after the election and tell us our vote didn’t count and doesn’t matter because God will have who he wants regardless of what we do. Sorry, but they can’t have it both ways. I say to these pastors and evangelic leaders, “Pick one and stick with it.” Then they say, “And oh, by the way, you also have to give him and his foolishness honor and respect.” In rebuttal to the proposition that Barack Obama was elected president because God wants him and we should lavish him with honor and respect and obey all his ordinances – I disagree on all points. I have researched the proposition that God selects all leaders, that we should obey all ordinances of those who have authority over us, and that we should give honor and respect to whoever happens to be our leader, regardless of his character. Below are a few of the main points and if you have the time and desire, you can contact me for the entire 15 page explanation. georgeisit@yahoo.com ============================================== [God selects all leaders Daniel 2:21, Proverbs 8:15-16:] My findings show: Man selects most leaders, not God, and man subsequently suffers the consequences for his selections. Here are but a few of the verses that support this conclusion. Jdg 9:6 And all the leaders of Shechem came together, and all Beth-millo, and they went and made Abimelech king, by the oak of the pillar at Shechem. 2Ki 23:30 …the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father's stead. 2Ki 23:33 And Pharaoh Nechoh put him in bands at Riblah in the land of Hamath, that he might not reign in Jerusalem;… 2Ki 23:34 And Pharaoh Nechoh made Eliakim the son of Josiah king in the room of Josiah his father, and turned his name to Jehoiakim, and took Jehoahaz away: and he came to Egypt, and died there. 2Ki 24:17-18 And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father's brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah. Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah. 2Ki 25:22 And as for the people that remained in the land of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had left, even over them he made Gedaliah the son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, ruler. Deu 17:15 …You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. ==================================================== [We are to give honor and respect to our leaders, regardless of who they are and what their character is-Romans 13-7:] Honor: My finding say: We give “honor and respect” to those who are due it and not because they happen to be in a position of power. Psa 14:1 …The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God… All atheists are fools, but all fools are not atheists. Many leaders are theist/deists and fools at the same time. And then you have those who claim to believe in God only because it is politically expedient. Fools are not worthy of honor. Evil is not worthy of honor. Pro 26:1 As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool. Pro 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honor to a fool. The fool will be deserving of honor and/or will behave honorably when rain during harvest becomes beneficial and we have snow in August; in other words…never. Matthew Henry Commentary: Note, 1. It is too common a thing for honour to be given to fools, who are utterly unworthy of it and unfit for it. Respect: Pastor said: “Biblically we should respect their position. We should honor them.” I do not think it is Biblically correct to give respect to anyone because of his position. We are told over and over and over throughout the Bible that we should NOT give respect based on position in life. God doesn’t do that and neither should we. Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. When do we give respect then? We give respect where it is deserved! We give honor and respect to those who are due it. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor. I understand that Lev 19:15 is talking about sitting in judgment of another person, such as being on a jury, but the principle is the same; it doesn’t matter if it is a jury or everyday life. You don’t give honor and respect based on position in life. How do we give honor and respect to our new president then? Answer: By obeying the laws of this land...as long as those laws do not conflict with God's laws. ================================================== [Christians are to obey “every ordinance of man” 1 Peter 2:13, Romans 12:1:] If this is universally true, it means that the parents of baby Moses should have given their child up to be killed just as the ordinance of Pharaoh said. Exodus 1:22 It also means that Daniel should have accepted the food given him by king Nebuchadnezzar without protest. Daniel 1:8 It also means that Joseph and Mary should have given the baby Jesus up to be killed in order to obey the ordinance of Herod that all children under the age of two should be killed. Matthew 2:1-16 We obviously do not obey the president if his ordinances are in opposition to God’s principles. Would you take a 666 on your forehead just because the president's new law said you had to? I find it ironic that many pastors and evangelic leaders will insist that we get involved in politics and educate ourselves on the candidates and issues so that we can vote for the person that most closely aligns with our Christian values, then turn right around after the election and tell us our vote didn’t count and doesn’t matter because God will have who he wants regardless of what we do. Sorry, but they can’t have it both ways. I say to these pastors and evangelic leaders, “Pick one and stick with it.” Then they say, “And oh, by the way, you also have to give him and his foolishness honor and respect.”

In rebuttal to the proposition that Barack Obama was elected president because God wants him and we should lavish him with honor and respect and obey all his ordinances – I disagree on all points. I have researched the proposition that God selects all leaders, that we should obey all ordinances of those who have authority over us, and that we should give honor and respect to whoever happens to be our leader, regardless of his character. Below are a few of the main points and if you have the time and desire, you can contact me for the entire 15 page explanation.
georgeisit@yahoo.com
==============================================
[God selects all leaders Daniel 2:21, Proverbs 8:15-16:]
My findings show: Man selects most leaders, not God, and man subsequently suffers the consequences for his selections. Here are but a few of the verses that support this conclusion.

Jdg 9:6 And all the leaders of Shechem came together, and all Beth-millo, and they went and made Abimelech king, by the oak of the pillar at Shechem.

2Ki 23:30 …the people of the land took Jehoahaz the son of Josiah, and anointed him, and made him king in his father’s stead.

2Ki 23:33 And Pharaoh Nechoh put him in bands at Riblah in the land of Hamath, that he might not reign in Jerusalem;…
2Ki 23:34 And Pharaoh Nechoh made Eliakim the son of Josiah king in the room of Josiah his father, and turned his name to Jehoiakim, and took Jehoahaz away: and he came to Egypt, and died there.

2Ki 24:17-18 And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father’s brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah. Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.

2Ki 25:22 And as for the people that remained in the land of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had left, even over them he made Gedaliah the son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, ruler.

Deu 17:15 …You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.
====================================================

[We are to give honor and respect to our leaders, regardless of who they are and what their character is-Romans 13-7:]

Honor:
My finding say: We give “honor and respect” to those who are due it and not because they happen to be in a position of power.

Psa 14:1 …The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God…

All atheists are fools, but all fools are not atheists. Many leaders are theist/deists and fools at the same time. And then you have those who claim to believe in God only because it is politically expedient. Fools are not worthy of honor. Evil is not worthy of honor.

Pro 26:1 As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool.
Pro 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honor to a fool.

The fool will be deserving of honor and/or will behave honorably when rain during harvest becomes beneficial and we have snow in August; in other words…never.

Matthew Henry Commentary: Note, 1. It is too common a thing for honour to be given to fools, who are utterly unworthy of it and unfit for it.

Respect:
Pastor said: “Biblically we should respect their position. We should honor them.”
I do not think it is Biblically correct to give respect to anyone because of his position. We are told over and over and over throughout the Bible that we should NOT give respect based on position in life. God doesn’t do that and neither should we.
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

When do we give respect then? We give respect where it is deserved! We give honor and respect to those who are due it.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor.

I understand that Lev 19:15 is talking about sitting in judgment of another person, such as being on a jury, but the principle is the same; it doesn’t matter if it is a jury or everyday life. You don’t give honor and respect based on position in life.

How do we give honor and respect to our new president then? Answer: By obeying the laws of this land…as long as those laws do not conflict with God’s laws. ==================================================
[Christians are to obey “every ordinance of man”
1 Peter 2:13, Romans 12:1:]
If this is universally true, it means that the parents of baby Moses should have given their child up to be killed just as the ordinance of Pharaoh said. Exodus 1:22

It also means that Daniel should have accepted the food given him by king Nebuchadnezzar without protest. Daniel 1:8

It also means that Joseph and Mary should have given the baby Jesus up to be killed in order to obey the ordinance of Herod that all children under the age of two should be killed. Matthew 2:1-16

We obviously do not obey the president if his ordinances are in opposition to God’s principles. Would you take a 666 on your forehead just because the president’s new law said you had to?

]]> By: John VandenHurk http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-31127 John VandenHurk Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:14:11 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-31127 Thanks, Pastor, I have tremendous respect for pastors like you who sacrifice so much for the preaching of the Gospel. I do pray for Obama and his salvation and that our country may be healed. On the other hand, I almost see us heading towards the last chapter. Are we seeing the beginning of the end? Anyway, that does not matter now; we must win souls today and the rest of our short stay on this Earth. Thanks again Psalm 62:6-7 Thanks, Pastor, I have tremendous respect for pastors like you who sacrifice so much for the preaching of the Gospel. I do pray for Obama and his salvation and that our country may be healed. On the other hand, I almost see us heading towards the last chapter. Are we seeing the beginning of the end? Anyway, that does not matter now; we must win souls today and the rest of our short stay on this Earth.
Thanks again
Psalm 62:6-7

]]> By: gardner@bcwe.org http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-31115 gardner@bcwe.org Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:30:06 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-31115 Thank you all for your responses--I never expected everyone to be in agreement with me. I also think I I understand some of the frustrations that donewastingtimeinchurch must have--My family has paid a little price to be in the ministry all of these years. I agree also with John VandenHurk. We understand that we are not to contradict God's truth and authority. I do not think that we will ever see a "true" spiritual leader come to office and I know that as a pastor I am to teach and preach the Bible which is what I am trying to do. I will preach against the sin of abortion, homosexuality, etc. But I will still try to respect the position of the presidency. By the way I think that we should be praying for President Obama and his salvation and that God would direct him to paths of righteousness. Thanks again for your comments and keep them coming Thank you all for your responses–I never expected everyone to be in agreement with me. I also think I I understand some of the frustrations that donewastingtimeinchurch must have–My family has paid a little price to be in the ministry all of these years.

I agree also with John VandenHurk. We understand that we are not to contradict God’s truth and authority. I do not think that we will ever see a “true” spiritual leader come to office and I know that as a pastor I am to teach and preach the Bible which is what I am trying to do.

I will preach against the sin of abortion, homosexuality, etc. But I will still try to respect the position of the presidency. By the way I think that we should be praying for President Obama and his salvation and that God would direct him to paths of righteousness.

Thanks again for your comments and keep them coming

]]> By: John VandenHurk http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-31112 John VandenHurk Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:04:08 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-31112 Just a warning about accepting Obama completely. The Lord obviously wants us to obey those in authority; however, this is true only if he does not directly contradicts God's truth and Authority. Obama is staunchly pro-abortion, homosexual tolerant and certainly not one who promotes Biblical absolutes. I believe Christians, leaders and politicians and the rest of us, should fight and stand against anything that insults God's morals. Yes, God allowed Obama to be president, but that may be because the nation is getting what it deserves. We have reaped what we have sown, but that does not mean we Christians should not object to evil and oppose it through the preaching of the Gospel and civil disobedience. If we do that, we may see a true spiritual leader come to office in 4 years! p.s. to fedupwithchurch: You have no excuse for blasting God (His name is capitalized)! You obviously have used the age-old copout of "People have wronged me, so I am going to reject God." Get your eyes off other people and yourself and dare to ask God to show Himself to you in a personal way. I am sorry for your mom (I lost my mom and sister too after much prayer), but that's no excuse for your bitter attitude. Get a life (eternal, that is)! Just a warning about accepting Obama completely. The Lord obviously wants us to obey those in authority; however, this is true only if he does not directly contradicts God’s truth and Authority. Obama is staunchly pro-abortion, homosexual tolerant and certainly not one who promotes Biblical absolutes. I believe Christians, leaders and politicians and the rest of us, should fight and stand against anything that insults God’s morals. Yes, God allowed Obama to be president, but that may be because the nation is getting what it deserves. We have reaped what we have sown, but that does not mean we Christians should not object to evil and oppose it through the preaching of the Gospel and civil disobedience. If we do that, we may see a true spiritual leader come to office in 4 years!

p.s. to fedupwithchurch: You have no excuse for blasting God (His name is capitalized)! You obviously have used the age-old copout of “People have wronged me, so I am going to reject God.” Get your eyes off other people and yourself and dare to ask God to show Himself to you in a personal way. I am sorry for your mom (I lost my mom and sister too after much prayer), but that’s no excuse for your bitter attitude. Get a life (eternal, that is)!

]]> By: Shirl H http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-31061 Shirl H Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:26:23 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-31061 Thanks for your insight and scripture! I read and agree with your article on "Some things I know about our new president." I'm always encouraged by Bible based facts and reaffirming what I've always been taught. Now is the time to pray more than ever for revival for our country. The Bible tells us in Matt. 10:16 to "...be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." Now is not the time to bash our new president but to uphold him in prayer. Thanks Thanks for your insight and scripture! I read and agree with your article on “Some things I know about our new president.” I’m always encouraged by Bible based facts and reaffirming what I’ve always been taught. Now is the time to pray more than ever for revival for our country. The Bible tells us in Matt. 10:16 to “…be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.” Now is not the time to bash our new president but to uphold him in prayer. Thanks

]]> By: donewastingtimeinchurch http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-31056 donewastingtimeinchurch Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:07:50 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-31056 WOW! Thanks for the wonderful reminder........that either there is no god or it doesn't give a damn what's going on down here. Keep throwing away your ten percent and 1 or 2 days a week while waiting for your IOU's to roll in on some imaginary beachfront property in a paradise no one can prove exists. Grew up doing things "god's way", and realized my family and I only got rewarded with being curb stomped by the very people your god had promised to protect us from. It's wonderful watching your dad's life work get flushed down the drain while his and my blood, sweat, and tears paid off his partner's trips to vegas to fool around with his secretary, who is now living in a house that was paid for with what was my early retirement. Oh and what joy there is in watching your mom thank god for getting cancer, twice! Yay! Oh wait, it's god that healed her, right? Then I guess we need to get our money back for all the chemo and mastectomy. Funny how god couldn't heal her cancer until she was wretching blood and her hair was falling out. Where did all your prayers get you Tuesday? A marxist, racist, anti-semitic, socio-path for a leader. 10% for your god, another 50% for redistribution! Hoorah! Can't wait for him to sit back and allow israel's biggest enemies to start testing nukes and chem-weapons. Oh, but maybe a magic prayer shield will pop up over jerusalem and bounce all the fallout into space. Watch him cower before china and russia while they work out partnerships with cuba and venezuela. Hell he'll probably finance the deals with your hard work. By the way, "the bible says" is the easiest way to lose any and all credibility in the real world. It immediately implies a complete abandon of all things logical and factual. Can't wait til one of you comes up with the whole "why bother posting if you're only going to spew hate" or try to get me deleted. It will only further illustrate the head in the sand approach your religion fosters. It's not hate, it's realism, spend the time and money you're wasting in church on your child's education or work if you want results. You can spit in one hand and pray in the other, guess which one will fill up first. Why bother working for god if your god is never going to work for you? WOW! Thanks for the wonderful reminder……..that either there is no god or it doesn’t give a damn what’s going on down here. Keep throwing away your ten percent and 1 or 2 days a week while waiting for your IOU’s to roll in on some imaginary beachfront property in a paradise no one can prove exists. Grew up doing things “god’s way”, and realized my family and I only got rewarded with being curb stomped by the very people your god had promised to protect us from. It’s wonderful watching your dad’s life work get flushed down the drain while his and my blood, sweat, and tears paid off his partner’s trips to vegas to fool around with his secretary, who is now living in a house that was paid for with what was my early retirement. Oh and what joy there is in watching your mom thank god for getting cancer, twice! Yay! Oh wait, it’s god that healed her, right? Then I guess we need to get our money back for all the chemo and mastectomy. Funny how god couldn’t heal her cancer until she was wretching blood and her hair was falling out.
Where did all your prayers get you Tuesday? A marxist, racist, anti-semitic, socio-path for a leader. 10% for your god, another 50% for redistribution! Hoorah! Can’t wait for him to sit back and allow israel’s biggest enemies to start testing nukes and chem-weapons. Oh, but maybe a magic prayer shield will pop up over jerusalem and bounce all the fallout into space. Watch him cower before china and russia while they work out partnerships with cuba and venezuela. Hell he’ll probably finance the deals with your hard work. By the way, “the bible says” is the easiest way to lose any and all credibility in the real world. It immediately implies a complete abandon of all things logical and factual.
Can’t wait til one of you comes up with the whole “why bother posting if you’re only going to spew hate” or try to get me deleted. It will only further illustrate the head in the sand approach your religion fosters. It’s not hate, it’s realism, spend the time and money you’re wasting in church on your child’s education or work if you want results. You can spit in one hand and pray in the other, guess which one will fill up first.
Why bother working for god if your god is never going to work for you?

]]> By: gardner@bcwe.org http://visionbaptist.com/blog/2008/11/05/some-things-i-know-about-our-new-president/comment-page-1/#comment-31053 gardner@bcwe.org Thu, 06 Nov 2008 11:54:44 +0000 http://visionbaptist.com/blog/?p=2028#comment-31053 Thank you very much and I do hope that it blesses and helps others Thank you very much and I do hope that it blesses and helps others

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